Flexing Your Boundary Muscle
Client work naturally involves a discussion of boundaries, whether it’s with time, energy, needs and other requests. Being able to manage and maintain boundaries comes easier with time and practice - and we’ve been doing it for a while. But when do you give in, and when do you hold the line?
In this roundtable discussion, WOTW co-founder Kelsey Gilbert-Kreiling, project manager Jeannine Gallagher, developers Shelly Morse and Alex Lucke and editor Molly Each talk about establishing, holding and supporting boundaries when it comes to your clients, your own curiosity and your fellow teammates.
*This interview has been edited and condensed for clarity.
Molly Each: One thing that’s interesting is that Week of the Website really encourages holding your boundaries, and I find that really unique with client work. Let’s start there: How do you flex your boundary muscle, and what does that mean to you?
Jeannine Gallagher: It's interesting, the dynamic for Week of the Website is to make sure a client walks away feeling happy. Of course — that's not unique to us. So it's really hard to be like, I'm sorry, we're not going to source images for you, or we're not going to do branding for you. That might not make you happy. But we can't do that for you, that's not in our scope. Another company might just say, sorry, you read the contract, we don't do that, but that's going to leave a bad taste in their mouth. So a lot of times it comes down to [saying], we understand your goal and why you need it, so here are some other options that will work well with the time we have. Then our clients don’t have a bad taste, and it gives us a boundary because we don't have the time. So make sure that they know that we can't do this for you, but we do want to help you, so here's something else that might look as good or even better.
Kelsey Gilbert-Kreiling: I feel like the first thing I always think of when clients ask for something is, tell me more about that. Because when we would immediately be like, 10 steps down the road, they may not even know what they're asking for. I think part of that process is getting them to then define what they are actually asking for.
ME: Alex and Shelly, from a developer point of view, what does it mean to flex the boundary?
Shelly Morse: Well, I'm pretty sure I got invited to this chat because I'm the one with no boundaries. [Laughing] So that is the perspective I come from. I just lean on my PM really hard.
KGK: First of all, Shelly this is not an intervention. We never do that on a Wednesday, that's a Friday activity. [Laughing] I think you and Alex are such good people to be a part of this conversation because you have so much firepower in your talent arsenal that I imagine doing Week of the Website projects is sometimes really hard because you are so curious and so driven to find solutions, it's a matter of navigating how to solve this problem in a way that makes sense for this client and this project without like, falling totally into the most curious part of your personality. Which of course we love and treasure and value, but also don't want you to stay up all night working.
SM: Yeah, at some point I have to ask myself like, how far does this need to be researched? Am I doing this because it's now a pride thing, where I know there's a solution out there, but it may not fit into the scope of what we're doing? I would love to build systems for all clients, but that's not what we do here. So it's really relying on our process to be like, OK, we can make best recommendations, we'll do due diligence of course, but you can only take it so far. So not getting carried away.
Alex Lucke: I totally agree with Shelly. I think I'm still in the process of figuring out how to actually apply my boundaries and be really confident in them because I feel like she and I both are like, well, I can do this, but should I do this? That’s kind of what it comes down to. It really comes back to scope. I think all of us take a lot of pride in our work. From a developer's standpoint, we constantly want to push the boundaries. The websites we were doing two years ago look nothing like the ones we're rolling out now. And that's a product of that [pride]. But like, maybe if I want to prove to myself I can do this, I need to do this outside of this project and then come prepared for the next one. That's really helped me. It's like, this is a week, this is what they're paying, this is the value they're getting from this. It should be an amazing website, but this shouldn't necessarily be my time to push those limits to a point where I’m getting burned out. And I do that out of respect for the clients. If I'm burned out, it shows in my work and it's just not worth it. So it helps everyone to [say], this is where we're drawing the line. You're still going to get an amazing website. Our standard is already very high.
KGK: I think a lot of clients, they have no idea.
SM: Right. Clients ask us for something not knowing how much time that's going to take me. So figuring out is this a make-it-or-break-it situation. Because there’s a solution that I can implement in 10 minutes, or else this thing you're asking for that's going to take me six hours. So is that really important to you? Or are we okay with functionality being met in a different manner?
KGK: Jeannine, when you're working with the developer who has been bitten by that curiosity bug and is chasing down a really cool idea that's just not for whatever reason coming quickly — I imagine that's a bit of like a challenging boundary for you. Because you're sort of holding the middle between like the client and the developer being like, guys…? What are we doing here?
JG: Well, it kind of comes to sneaking in hints on the call. If we really want this to rock, that's fine, but it's taking time away from here. It’s tough because if they don't know the time involved, they [might be] thinking, why wouldn't we still be able to do everything? So talking it through. I think despite wanting to go that extra mile, we do really great at communicating that. It might not be hard, like, hey listen, you guys gotta pump the brakes. It's in a very calm way.
But Shelly and Alex, even if you guys feel like you don’t have boundaries, I still hear both of you say, let me take a look at that, and if we do that, we might end up not being able to do this. And I can't think of a time when a client was like, why? I think that most are receptive. They don't know the time involved, so you have to say that something else might have to give. It’s tough to be in the middle of that, but I trust that when the devs are going down a path, there's a reason for it. So it's just telling the client, do we want to forfeit something else or do you want another solution?
KGK: I love that. There's always a middle place, right? There's always a way to accomplish the intention behind the request, even if we're not able to do it the way that they want us to. I think sometimes the biggest interpretation is: here's the spirit of what you need to have happen, and here's how we can do that in the time that we have. Nine times out of 10, they're fine with it.
AL: That’s also something our team has gotten a lot better at doing. We want you to have your cake and eat it too, but we're going to communicate how it's going to get sliced, right? So if you want this right now, then we can do this later on. If this is really important to you, if you want this image to do this crazy thing, we can do that at an hourly rate. But let's get you a really solid foundation and then we can add those extras. I’ve noticed a lot of our team practicing that, and it’s been amazing to say ‘not right now’ instead of a full-blown ‘no.’
KGK: When we scope projects, we're really trying to get as much detail as we can going into it, so we have already negotiated those boundaries and front-loaded some of those conversations. From my perspective, the worst case scenario is that the client and the PM and the dev are having to do a bunch of that feature negotiation. I want that to happen before we even contract, so when we step into the project, we all know what we've agreed to. Anything that’s outside of that, it’s really easy for us to hit the pause button and be like, let's talk about how we need to rescue this so we can make everyone happy. I don't think we've always done that, and I don't think we're always perfect with it, but I think that that's something that I know, like especially transitioning from being a dev almost full-time to doing business development and sales, I never want someone to get surprised by something that I didn't communicate in that process.
JG: That's gotten a lot better, Kelsey. Seriously, that's a good point. It is so much easier to say, hey, that wasn't mentioned up front, but let's see how that works.
KGK: Well, we now know that any extra pressure we put on you all as developers and project managers rolls downhill to everybody else. And that's not fair to the clients who come after if you have a project that majorly burns you out, or if you feel like you're having to expend that emotional energy to reinforce those boundaries. It takes away from everybody. So I think that's definitely something that we've tried to be better at. It'll never be perfect because people are people, and people will be people, but that's the goal.
There's always a way to accomplish the intention behind the request, even if we're not able to do it the way that they want us to.
ME: One thing that's interesting is that I hear two boundaries: boundaries with the client and boundaries with yourself. Do you feel like one is easier than the other?
SM: I feel like it's harder to reel myself in. Talking to a client, I can be like, OK, listen, we're not going to do that, but we'll do this like any other thing. But if I'm on a mission to figure something out, I will spend 40 hours doing it. I don't care how long it takes me. I'm going to do it. So taking a step back and being like, what is the reason I’m doing this? And do I have the capacity to do this right now? If the answer is yes, that's fine. If the answer is no, we shouldn’t be sacrificing our mental health to be getting these projects done. I think for me personally, it is definitely holding myself back because I'm ultimately a better developer when I am not burned out. So I have to continuously remind myself of that.
AL: I agree with that. But I definitely think as I've gotten older and more seasoned in this position, I would say it really comes down to self-respect and acknowledging, like, it's one thing to push yourself. I'm very similar to Shelly; when I latch onto a concept, I do whatever it takes to figure it out. But to a certain point, and within such an intense time constraint, it is disrespectful to myself and the people around me when I'm doing that just to pat myself on the back. At the end of the day, that's very self-righteous and I think this nature of work has to be so centered on the client and the project to keep it in perspective.
KGK: I've found it to be so much easier to hold boundaries as an example. Like last night, for example. It was 7:30, Jasper was down, and I was waiting for the oven to heat up. I was working on trying to solve this problem with a tool that we're gonna use on a couple of different projects at the same time. And Bess, who's one of our newer developers, and I were talking and I was just like, you know what? We've worked on this enough for tonight. Let's just take a beat and catch up in the morning. Sure enough, I slept, woke up, sat down in front of my computer and had a solution in like, 15 minutes. I realized this is a situation where I'm either setting the example that regardless of what's going on in your personal life, regardless of what time it is or how long you've been working on this or where we are in the project, you should keep driving at that solution. There's a time in place for that stuff, but it didn't need to be solved last night. If I'm not willing to set an example in terms of rest and taking breaks, it's very hard for other people to feel like they can, too. I have found myself having better boundaries for my own work because I want everyone on the team to be like, if they're taking a break, I should be allowed to take a break.
ME: You usually hear the opposite: I work really hard to show my staff that if I'm working hard, you should too. It’s interesting to hear that I'm giving myself some grace to show everyone else that’s OK.
KGK: Because we want people to work with us for years, not for 10 minutes and then be like, this is exhausting.
AL: Even when times get tough, I think in setting those boundaries you really make sure to communicate and essentially have receipts. So if the client does come back and is like, whoa, whoa, whoa. This isn't what we talked about. It's like, no, we've been talking about this the whole time. So I think like a balance of setting that example and communicating if things do kind of go awry. It works out because we're laying this really nice framework of transparency in everything that we do. Like Kelsey being like, I'm off. Or, I’ll do this page this way, but then we have to compromise this. Having all of that laid out has been such a safeguard and a mental reminder that, no, this is okay. Like, this is what I said.
ME: Is there a feeling that goes along with flexing your boundary muscle? When you do or don’t, do you like to feel it in a different way?
SM: I think it depends on why I'm flexing the boundary muscle. I also think there's. a few different versions of that, but it's like, am I flexing this muscle because the client's being a dick to me and like [laughs]. Kelsey’s like, oh my god.
KGK: No, it's totally legitimate and you're right. Am I pushing back on you because you're pushing me? Which I think is reasonable.
SM: But if you're nice to me, I'm much more likely to go to the moon and back for you versus you're pushing me. I think that's where we are really great at setting boundaries and also we work with really lovely clients who don't do that. But you know, there's that every once in a while. I feel really good when I'm like, no we're not gonna do that because you're also being very rude. But if it's because I'm burned out and I don't have the mental energy — that feels less good. I don't like that. So trying to avoid getting to that place is really important to me.
AL: I think setting a boundary in a place of scarcity is when I feel that tightness in my stomach. I'm already so exhausted, and having to be like, I invested all this time and didn't even get anything from it really sucks. A physical sensation that I get when I'm really driving something home and getting really worked up, is I'll get a tightness in my stomach and I can acknowledge that even in my personal life and say, OK, I need to take a step back. When I do set that healthy boundary, I don't even get that pang of like, should I have done that? It's very free of anxiety; it’s me standing up for myself. And that's why I talk about self-respect, because you need to set those boundaries to protect yourself at the end of the day. So if it comes from a place of scarcity, it does not feel nice. But when you're setting yourself up and exercising that muscle, it gets way easier and everybody wins.
JG: To Shelly's point, I think when there's a really nice client, it is very hard to set those boundaries because they're being very lovely. You really want to go the extra mile because they're so great, and it just doesn't feel good to tell them, sorry, we can't do that. And we have to! Sometimes we can figure out that cool little solution for them, and it might take a few extra hours, but we're happy to do it. Like Alex said, do you have that feeling in the pit of your stomach? Then it's time to stop. But if it's something you're doing as labor of love and it feels good to give them that solution, then OK. Iit might actually fill your cup a little bit. It definitely depends on where you're coming from.
KGK: I have said a couple of times that we structured Week of the Website in response to our own worst tendencies. Like, I am a people pleaser. I don't even know if I can say I'm recovering. I will just say redirecting. One of the things that was the hardest about building websites — like, we'll spec it out, we'll quote for however long it takes, yada, yada, yada. It felt so impossible to enforce those boundaries, and I didn't think I had the inner strength to do that. So setting up this structure where it's like, this is what you agreed to. This is how long we said we'd work together. This is what we promised to bring to the table, and this is you agreeing to all of that. I'm not being unkind by holding you to what you said you were going to do and what you agreed to. I'm just going off of what we've already talked about and I think that has been really fun because it's like, oh yeah, I can then use that in other parts of my life. But, I just don't want to have to have those conversations with people more than once.
ME: OK, I don't wanna keep you guys too much longer. Do you have any last thoughts about this, about the idea of boundaries?
JG: I think if the communication is there upfront, it takes the emotion out. It helps me feel better about the boundary. It's not personal. We're here to help and we want to go the extra mile. We want you to feel happy. But it's disrespectful of you to push that boundary, and so it's my job to maintain it, but it's all on the up and up. We've laid it out, and so now we're just carrying through and making sure that we're executing with what we agreed upon. So there should be no surprises. I feel like that's a really big help with this process because it's so lined out.
AL: Something so special about Week of the Website is that we always have each other's backs. At the end of the day, I am so supported by my PMs, by you, Kelsey, by Mallory. So I know if I set that boundary and the team hears it, they're going to respect that and reinforce it if they need to, and that is something that is so valuable.
SM: The last thing I’ll say is that the boundaries are there to keep the project completely successful — that's truly what they’re for! I think as long as everyone respects it on both sides, we end up with really, really successful projects, repeat clients, people who love coming back to us. So I think that's something that's super special about Week of the Website as well. Like it's, it's just a fantastic process.
